[Crossfire-wiki] [Crossfire DokuWiki] page changed: user:mwedel:skills

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Date        : 2011/02/10 00:54
User        : mwedel
Edit Summary: add attribute section.

@@ -136,8 +136,43 @@
    * The one plus is that it is reasonable that dodge could be used to avoid certain spells (bullet, bolts, but probably not cones or exploding balls which encompass everything in the area)
  
  I am concerned about a character that maxes out both their dodge and armor skills - such a character could have very good armor rating and also have a very good dodge rating.  But perhaps that is reasonable - if a character focuses on that, they are probably not focusing on as many weapon skills or perhaps other useful skills, like possible survival skills which give some elemental resistances.
  
+ === Attributes ===
+ 
+ In thinking about this, and how to balance it with everything else, one has to re-examine attributes (str, int, dex, etc) and current bonuses.  The reason behind this is that the bonuses one gets with high attributes has to be balanced with the skills themselves.
+ 
+ For example, under the current system, a Quetzalcoutal (+6 str) barbarian (+3 str) could start with a 29 strength.  A 29 strength gives a +9 damage bonus.  Now a non fighter character may have a 15 strength, which is +2 damage bonus, so that barbarian has a net +7.  If one follows the system where every 4 levels of fighting one gets +1 damage bonus, that corresponds effectively to having 28 levels of fighting skill (this may not be technically true, as the fighting skill would also improve weapon speed some).  This means that the attribute itself becomes much more important than the skill.
+ 
+ Also, many of the skills have the bonus be very front loaded, meaning that the first several levels one gets a lot of bonus, and not much after that.  Things like Constitution and grace/mana bonuses are that way - they give bonuses for the first 10 levels, and nothing after that.  So a character with a 30 con would get 25 hp/level for the first 10 - this has many balance impacts.
+ 
+ So my basic thought is this:
+   * Attributes range from 1 to 100.  This creates nice symmetry with levels and other aspects of the game (100 based).
+   * Base attributed (no bonus/no penalty) would be 20.  This gives sufficient space for things to be less than humans.  Eg, one might say a cat should be strength 8, and a mouse strength 2.
+   * Attributes bonuses are linear.  For example, if 100 strength gives a +20 damage bonus, that means that every 4 attribute points ( (100-20)/20 ) would increase damage.  There are not major jumps like current systems.
+   * For penalties, the rate of penalty is higher, for example, a 1 strength may be a -9 penalty ( (20 - 1) / 2 ).  This makes penalties for starting characters a bit more harsh, but may also be perfectly reasonable.  For example, that starting mage may have a 10 strength, or -5 damage penalty because they spent their points increasing magic attributes.  That is fine, and if they never plan to use a weapon, doesn't really hurt them.
+   * For attributes that give a bonus per level (Eg, hp, mana, sp), this should be for complete level range (1-100), not first 10.  The bonus per level can actually be worked backward.  For example, if it is decided that a character should get 500 bonus hp from maxed con, that means +5 @ 100 con.  This means that the con bonus would be .0625/level (5/80) - note that instead of having integer values, these could also be stored as floats.  Thus, if you are level 16, each point you increase con is 1 hp.
+   * Starting stat bonuses may be more extreme - but not much more, than right now.  Eg, the best combination may give a character a 30 stat.
+ 
+ This attribute system is based on the idea that characters get about 10 hp/mana/grace per level (it may be random, but assume that improvement potions exist).  So my idea of actual stats:
+ 
+   * Strength - max strength bonus is 20.  Strength would still determine how much you carry, but would not improve weapon speed nor would it counteract maximum speed from armor.  The fact it lets one carry more does me that the character may move faster.
+   * Intelligence is used for arcane spell effectiveness.  For example, a high intelligence might mean spells do more damage.  Some skills, like literacy, would still get some bonus from intelligence, but IMO, the skill should be the dominant factor.
+   * Wisdom is used for priest spells.  Like Intelligence, high wisdom may increase spell effectiveness - does more healing, lasts longer, etc - effect really depends on the spell.  A simple implementation may be that the high attribute increases effective caster level (eg, +1 every 5 levels).  Wisdom is also used for grace - max bonus at level 100 is +500 grace, or 5/level
+   * Dexterity is used for dodge bonus - perhaps its peaks at 40% (since dodge is a new concept, exact balance here is hard) - that is .5%/attribute point above 20.  If it is suggested that starting character have 15% dodge (anyone is going to try to dodge attacks), a starting character may be able to get 20-25% dodge (5% from 30 stat, another 5% from skill?)
+   * Constitution is usd for hp bonus.  Max of 500 total hp gained, or 5 hp/level.  Note that high con could start giving other benefits, eg, faster regeneration, resistance to poison, etc.
+   * Power is used for mana bonus.  Max of 500 total mana, or 5 mana/level.  Unlike current system where mana bonus is a mix of int and power, I'd suggest it just be power to make things simpler/more direct.  How power could give faster regeneration - I'm not sure if it would get used for skills much.
+   * Charisma is currently not utilized much - some skills use it, but also used for shop pricing.  I'd suggest that at 100 Charisma, a character can buy and sell items at near the same price (eg, if you sold something, you could buy it back for just a few percentage more than you sold it).  Bargaining also affects pricing, but I suggest and and/or setup.  Eg, the bonus from bargaining + bonus for charisma is added, and cap applied. Thus, a 50 bargaining/50 charisma character may get near best pricing as a 100 charisma or 100 bargaining character.  One thought is that penalty for 'not the right shop' gets deducted, so a 100 bargaining/100 charisma may be able to sell anything and any shop and still get good prices.
+ 
+ Note that since in many cases, the actual bonus for the attribute will be much less per level than current, starting at level 5 makes more sense - it means the bonus is more likely to be noticable.  One other thought I had is that instead of attribute giving per level bonus, it is a straight bonus.  Eg, each point of constitution gives a 5 hp bonus.  The problem with this approach is that a character with a 30 attribute would get 50 hp more than a character with a 20.  If one presumes that starting characters have about 50 hp, this really makes balance harder - smaller/per level bonuses make it much more predictable - at a 5 bonus/level, one can figure that at any given level, best hp the character has is 15 * level - realistically, it is going to be lower because a level 10 character is unlikely to have a 100 con.  But this would certainly keep the range of hp/grace/mana at any given level fairly close.
+ 
+ As far as improvements of attributes, I have following thoughts:
+   * There is no cap put in by potions, eg, if one can find enough potions, one can get 100 attribute.
+   * Make different variety of potions (minor, moderate, greater), but these determine attribute total it applies to.  Eg, minor applies to when stats are up to 250 total, moderate is 500 total, and greater is 700 total.  Idea behind make it work on total stats is that it once again provides some incentive to focus on stats.
+   * Perhaps remove the fact that potion is tied to different stat, eg, if you drink a stat improvement potion, you can improve any stat you want through some mechanism.
+   * Since there are now many more stat points, quests or rare treasures could also increase stats - these would have to be non repeatable, but one could imagine a strength training type quest which will increase the characters strength.
+   * Perhaps also allow spending of AP points to increase attributes (10 AP/point?)
+   * In general, it is harder to increase attributes than skills.  One thought behind this is that for some attribute, many skills use it.  Eg, a character with a high strength gets an advantage with all the weapon skills, where as if he increases swordsmanship, he is only better in that one skill.
  
  === Loose Ends ===
  
  The examples here really just focused on the 3 main character archetypes (fighter, cleric, mage).  Crossfire has many more than that, and I think this also helps them out.
@@ -167,4 +202,14 @@
    * have players start at level eg 5, so monsters level 1 can have a sense
    * powerful artifacts and items should be carefully balanced against that ; maybe a sword requiring a minimum level in one handed weapons?
    * maybe a possibility to use AP to get more HP/SP/GR? so you can level up all you want, and still have a (minor) benefit
    * add 'handicaps' to claim more AP? for instance, as a fighter, I choose 'no magic', which makes my sp recharge rate almost zero but gives me eg 5 AP I can use elsewhere ; need to balance so the points given by handicap can't be used to counterbalance said handicap, of course, and maybe limit how many handicaps one can take
+ 
+  --- Mark Wedel 2011/02/09, in response to comments above:
+   * For level loss, do not try to do anything - it is just that much longer before character will get new AP and be able to increase anything
+   * Monsters should use same mechanism - I'm not sure they actually need a larger range
+   * Players starting at level 5 make sense.
+   * Balancing of items is very important.  Putting in skill requirements (instead of item power) may make sense.  Artifacts should also be properly balance between all the skills (eg, all the best weapon artifacts should not be swords - there should be some good hammers, axes, etc)
+   * Ability to use AP for other things is a possibility.  Using it for hp/sp/grace should really be a near end game decision - until character has maxed out many skills, it should be of greater advantage to do that than increase hp/sp/grace.
+   * Advantages/disadvantages could be added - some advantages could cost AP points also, eg, fast regeneration.  But I'd leave that for a later phase since that creates a complete new set of things that would need to get balanced.  However, if that was balanced, one could then use that as a basis for balancing classes and races, eg, regeneration is worth 20 AP, see in dark is worth 10, so a race that starts those should really get 30 AP less.
+ 
+ 


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