[crossfire] Priority feature list

[Juergen Kahnert]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 09:30:09PM +0300, Juha Jäykkä wrote:
> Partying is "essential" for multiplayer games, at least some
> rudimentary support either with or without xp sharing. Multiplaying is
> the sole reason I prefer CF over things like Wesnoth.

Sure, don't remove party support, doesn't matter if it's rudimentary.
But don't create a pure multiplayer game out of CF, this won't work.


> BTW, another multiplayer game we might learn from is Widelands. It
> does not do interactive battles, but it does have very nice graphics
> (in 2D!) and it manages to fit stunning amounts of info into a 800x600
> window!

That's made with higher resolution.  You need to exchange all images in
CF to add additional informations into the map view.

And overlapping windows are no solution for CF.  You won't like it to
see your party member informations in a windows which overlaps your map
view where a retributioner is slashing your character because a party
member cleared the way for him... :-O


> > Having a hard start as a mage turns up into an impossible mission on
> > higher levels.  That's not fair.  If it's hard in the beginning, it
> > should become easier later on, not harder or impossible...
>
> I think everyone has agreed on this. Is it ok to list this in wiki?

I would like to see an overview of the goals we like to reach.  And for
each goal we discuss the solutions and write them into the wiki.

Some wishes are diametrically opposed to each other.  So we need the
overview of what we like to reach.


> fireborn would still only be able to apply 6 items against human's 12.
> Of course, there *could* be some extremely powerful fireborn -item,
> but I'd rather give fireborns a couple of "fireborn tentacles" or
> something like that to wear the fireborn stuff at.

Same for me.  Or let the intrinsic abilities increase with levels.  For
example add +1 to the magic of a fireborn for every 10 levels.
Something like that.  For every race which lacks on slots and has no
other real benefits.

Some high level items are very powerful and a "night vision" or similar
won't compensate the lack of a slot on higher levels.


> > And that a skill with a grade of "Expert" is better than one with
> > "Novice" can't be called confusing, right?
>
> Is 10th level Expert better or worse than 100th level novice? And what
> the heck does a 100th level novice mean anyway? Suppose you are 100th
> level novice carpenter. Does that mean you can only chop logs into
> pieces and nothing else, but you can do that extremely well, while a
> 10th level expert can sculpt beautiful statues, but is not as good at
> chopping logs as the other guy?

Now I understand your point.  Wow, took some time...  I'll revise this
idea.


> >     That is girdle of Valriel of the Crusade
> > (Str+3)(Dex+3)(Con+3)(Wis+5)(Cha+2)(ac+2)(item_power +1)(grace+3)
>
> Does this actually exist..?

Sure... incredible, isn't it?


> > I would like to see a formula for almost every item in CF.  Who made
> > those stuff if it can't be made? ;)
>
> Me too, and with my "generalised" formulas we would not need to
> separately invent a formula for every single item, since ring ac +1
> and ring ac +5 would have the same ingredients, just different amounts
> and difficulties.

Yes, as I said, I like that idea.


>
> > beginners with a lvl 1 fireborn sorcerer (magic only, no melee, not
> > as a monk - no meditation) and the same with a troll warrior (melee
> > only, no magic).
>
> Been there, done that, many times. Not a problem, but true, the troll
> probably cleans the place faster

"Probably faster"?  The troll runs through everything and the place was
cleaned within seconds.  The fireborn sorcerer (without meditation)
wasn't even able to kill all monsters from the right side of the map
before reaching 500 food. :-O

And no chance to clear the left side with the generators before
starvation.  Using melee this changes a lot, but the competition was
about magic vs melee.


> - that's as it should be. The problem, as everyone has agreed, comes
> at higher levels, where it is STILL easier and faster for the troll.

I beg your pardon?  A few seconds for the troll vs half an hour for the
fireborn sorcerer without being able to kill the ogre with fireballs?  I
had to buy "small lightning" to defeat the ogre.

No, that's not "as it should be".  This is just ridiculous.


> > If you have luck and you got small fireball with pyromancy skill.  If
> > not, you may start with detect magic or slow.  And now?  How to play a
> > sorcerer unwilling / unable to do melee?
>
> That might be troublesome. I've started quite a lot of sorcerers and
> never had useless spells at first level.

You'll get a level 1 sorcerer spell, one of these:

    detect magic
    magic bullet
    magic missile
    marking rune
    probe
    slow
    spark shower

This gives you a chance of 3/7 to get a spell you're able to make xp.


> Is there such a spell in level 1 sorcerer treasure list?

How you're able to start a lot of sorcerer without ever getting "probe"
or something like that?  I'm impressed about your luck...


> The fireborn always gets pyromancy and there are only killing-spells
> in pyromancy.

Yes, fireborns, but those will always choose monk, isn't it?


> Non-fireborns might get to trouble, though.

"Might"?  No, always without meditation and at least half of the time
with a useless starting spell.


> This could, however, be fixed by letting sorcery gain xp from
> non-fatal spells as well, like slow, detect magic etc. But how to
> prevent their abuse, then..?

How to abuse this?  If there is no more magic items undetected, no more
xp.  If you don't slow down a monster, no xp as well, ...  What's the
problem with this?


> > Prove it.  Try it out, feel the difference.  Again, not playing a
> > monk, playing a sorcerer!
>
> I won't be starting new characters at the moment, but I've played
> quite a few fireborn sorcerers before I realised how useful monks are.
> You just need patience. (And lots of food.)

It's not developing a new character, it's just a testing character to
clear beginning.

In the past I bet you used melee as well instead of pure magic.  And any
other race than fireborn wouldn't even get the +2 magic.  Much more
patience.  For what?  Unable to defeat the high level monsters later in
the game.  Yes, I also guess, everybody understood this point.


Re: segregating players to regions for their level

> > I know Mark don't like this idea, because it's lots of work.  But you
> > just said, you disklike it.  What are your reasons?
>
> It's an artificial limitation into what a character can do in a world.

The limitation will be to not commit suicide at a higher level regions
by facing monsters you can't handle.  That's a problem?


> I dislike those. I even dislike the fact that I cannot simply break
> any wall I choose (but realise that it is something that can not be
> changed without huge amounts of work). Segregating players into
> different areas is something that is not necessary in my opinion. I
> believe there are other ways to prevent abuse as well.

It's not about abuse, it's about a guide for newbies to find all the
places which are worth to be found.  Most newbies don't even know where
to go and what to do.  Having a storyline quest in regions best suited
for their level will change that.


> > Having regions for the same level will increase the fun for the
> > players.  I saw so much newbies unable to find suitable dungeons.
>
> That's a totally different thing. It would be difficult to find
> dungeons even with level-based segregation if there are not enough
> clues around.

That's why there has to be a storyline.  A quest for every region with
lots of side-quests.


> > Some got their fun spoiled by high level characters boosting them
> > ten or more levels by a short party at a high level map.  I think xp
> > sharing in a party is very bad and should be disabled.
>
> Two things here: 1) joining a party is voluntary, so if someone
> voluntarily spoils his game, why should we care?

My first experience with CF:  I joined a server, didn't know anything
about CF, found a player who said what I have to do.  I joined his
party, teleported to humanoid train, got lots of xp and items.

The second time I didn't found any suitable maps, all the beginner maps
are boring, and no idea how to find maps for my quick boosted character.
I wasn't even able to find again the humanoid training centre (neither
with this nor with lots of other characters) later on...

I stopped playing CF for a year or even longer.


> 2) sharing xp in a party is paramount, especially if we move towards
> "healers stand back and cast cure wounds and do not kill monsters"

I don't think so.  If you can't become better due to performing your
craft, the game engine is bad.

Let the healer gain xp from healing and you don't need xp sharing.


> Xp sharing can be tuned, however. It would be, for example, be
> possible to not give any xp to party members who are 10 levels lower
> than the guy killing the monster is.

May be a solution, but I still can't see how a character behind a wall
is able to learn anything from the actions of other characters in the
same party?  I would expect, _if_ there is any learn effect by watching
others, this should be something within the line of view, not the
membership of a party.  And only a fraction of the xp.


> Or, we could figure out other ways to prevent people from spoiling
> their gameplay.

For example?  Newbies don't know anything about the game.  They become
spoiled before they realize what's going on.

Dropping powerful items for low level characters is kind of spoiling,
too.  Let us segregate the characters on different levels and all this
is less likely.  Maybe we add the region level to every items, so you
can't equip an item out of a region you have no access right at the
moment.

    Jürgen