From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Wed May  5 01:45:38 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 23:45:38 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
Message-ID: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>

Hi there,

Some months ago I proposed switching the arch, maps, server, and client 
repositories to Git. Since feedback on the mailing list was positive, I 
think now is a good time to make the switch.

- If you have SVN checkouts of the arch, maps, server, or client
   repositories, get Git and clone the Git version from:

   https://sourceforge.net/p/crossfire/_list/git

   If you are running a server that tracks one of these repositories, you
   should probably update those, too.

- Before UTC Saturday 2021-05-08 22:00, please continue committing to
   SVN as usual. I will be manually keeping the Git up to date with SVN,
   so it may be a bit slow keeping up. Please do not commit to Git during
   this time.

- At UTC Saturday 2021-05-08 22:00, I will update these Git repositories
   from SVN one last time. Future commits in these repositories should go
   into Git. SVN will continue to be used for the repositories that
   haven't switched. The migrated repositories will still continue to
   exist in SVN for a while, but should not be committed to. Hopefully
   nobody gets confused by the fact that there are two repositories. At
   some point, perhaps we should delete these repositories from SVN.

I'd like to tentatively suggest this policy for commits going into Git:

1. To preserve linear history, no merge commits in 'master'. When
    merging branches into 'master', rebase the branch against 'master'
    and then do a fast-forward from 'master'.

2. Commit messages begin with a short, one-line summary, followed by a
    blank line, followed by more detailed explanatory text, if necessary.
    Lines are wrapped to approximately 72-ish characters.

Comments and feedback is appreciated, as is your patience while we make 
the switch.

Regards,
Kevin

From mwedel at sonic.net  Wed May  5 11:30:48 2021
From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 09:30:48 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
In-Reply-To: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
References: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ab017497-cc3e-cc09-eef4-b6c6e2d90ed5@sonic.net>

On 5/4/21 11:45 PM, Kevin Zheng wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> Some months ago I proposed switching the arch, maps, server, and client repositories to Git. Since feedback on the mailing list was positive, I think now is a good time to make the switch.
> 
<snip>

> - At UTC Saturday 2021-05-08 22:00, I will update these Git repositories
>    from SVN one last time. Future commits in these repositories should go
>    into Git. SVN will continue to be used for the repositories that
>    haven't switched. The migrated repositories will still continue to
>    exist in SVN for a while, but should not be committed to. Hopefully
>    nobody gets confused by the fact that there are two repositories. At
>    some point, perhaps we should delete these repositories from SVN.

  It looks like write (commit) access can be removed from the SVN repos in sourceforge while still letting them exist.  I'd suggest that be done, just to prevent any accidental commits (someone forgot to update their paths or whatever else).  Plus, it can be used to make sure no one commits anything while you are moving things over.

  Thanks for doing this work.



From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Wed May  5 12:44:44 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:44:44 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
In-Reply-To: <ab017497-cc3e-cc09-eef4-b6c6e2d90ed5@sonic.net>
References: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
 <ab017497-cc3e-cc09-eef4-b6c6e2d90ed5@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <ba5a23a1-8afa-462d-06e4-6d9b2e62eb7d@gmail.com>

On 5/5/21 9:30 AM, Mark Wedel wrote:
>   It looks like write (commit) access can be removed from the SVN repos 
> in sourceforge while still letting them exist.  I'd suggest that be 
> done, just to prevent any accidental commits (someone forgot to update 
> their paths or whatever else).  Plus, it can be used to make sure no one 
> commits anything while you are moving things over.

Thanks for the suggestion. This wasn't going to be so easy, because 
there were other subfolders in the repository that weren't part of this 
migration. Looking at the repo now, however, the only sub-directories 
left are jxclient, metaserver, and sounds.

If we also go ahead and migrate these over too, we can go ahead and make 
the entire SVN read-only after the switch.

If there are no objections, I will also go ahead and migrate jxclient, 
metaserver, and sounds.

Regards,
Kevin

From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Wed May  5 13:01:00 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 20:01:00 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
In-Reply-To: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
References: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2887206.hmcrtFE84a@gros>

Hello.


Fine for me, go ahead :)


Thanks


Nicolas


Le mardi 4 mai 2021, 23:45:38 CEST Kevin Zheng a écrit :
> Hi there,
> 
> Some months ago I proposed switching the arch, maps, server, and client
> repositories to Git. Since feedback on the mailing list was positive, I
> think now is a good time to make the switch.
> 
> - If you have SVN checkouts of the arch, maps, server, or client
>    repositories, get Git and clone the Git version from:
> 
>    https://sourceforge.net/p/crossfire/_list/git
> 
>    If you are running a server that tracks one of these repositories, you
>    should probably update those, too.
> 
> - Before UTC Saturday 2021-05-08 22:00, please continue committing to
>    SVN as usual. I will be manually keeping the Git up to date with SVN,
>    so it may be a bit slow keeping up. Please do not commit to Git during
>    this time.
> 
> - At UTC Saturday 2021-05-08 22:00, I will update these Git repositories
>    from SVN one last time. Future commits in these repositories should go
>    into Git. SVN will continue to be used for the repositories that
>    haven't switched. The migrated repositories will still continue to
>    exist in SVN for a while, but should not be committed to. Hopefully
>    nobody gets confused by the fact that there are two repositories. At
>    some point, perhaps we should delete these repositories from SVN.
> 
> I'd like to tentatively suggest this policy for commits going into Git:
> 
> 1. To preserve linear history, no merge commits in 'master'. When
>     merging branches into 'master', rebase the branch against 'master'
>     and then do a fast-forward from 'master'.
> 
> 2. Commit messages begin with a short, one-line summary, followed by a
>     blank line, followed by more detailed explanatory text, if necessary.
>     Lines are wrapped to approximately 72-ish characters.
> 
> Comments and feedback is appreciated, as is your patience while we make
> the switch.
> 
> Regards,
> Kevin
> _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire

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From mwedel at sonic.net  Wed May  5 22:45:51 2021
From: mwedel at sonic.net (Mark Wedel)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 20:45:51 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
In-Reply-To: <ba5a23a1-8afa-462d-06e4-6d9b2e62eb7d@gmail.com>
References: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
 <ab017497-cc3e-cc09-eef4-b6c6e2d90ed5@sonic.net>
 <ba5a23a1-8afa-462d-06e4-6d9b2e62eb7d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74b9b66b-4fd0-bff1-b637-c420156c2be5@sonic.net>

On 5/5/21 10:44 AM, Kevin Zheng wrote:
> On 5/5/21 9:30 AM, Mark Wedel wrote:
>>   It looks like write (commit) access can be removed from the SVN repos in sourceforge while still letting them exist.  I'd suggest that be done, just to prevent any accidental commits (someone forgot to update their paths or whatever else).  Plus, it can be used to make sure no one commits anything while you are moving things over.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion. This wasn't going to be so easy, because there were other subfolders in the repository that weren't part of this migration. Looking at the repo now, however, the only sub-directories left are jxclient, metaserver, and sounds.
> 
> If we also go ahead and migrate these over too, we can go ahead and make the entire SVN read-only after the switch.
> 
> If there are no objections, I will also go ahead and migrate jxclient, metaserver, and sounds.

  I think that is a good idea - it makes more sense to me that everything under the project is using the same source code control system, vs some using git and others using SVN.


From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Thu May  6 11:26:12 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 18:26:12 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Removing server-side help files for client-side commands
Message-ID: <6074373.YaYOqvrhrM@gros>

Hello.


I'd like to remove server-side help files that pertain to client-side commands.

I think that includes:
- bind
- nextkey
- prevkey
_ sort_inventory
- unbind


The rationale is that different clients don't necessarily have the same 
commands.


Opinions?


Best regards


Nicolas
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From pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net  Thu May  6 11:37:37 2021
From: pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net (Preston Crow)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 12:37:37 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Removing server-side help files for client-side
 commands
In-Reply-To: <6074373.YaYOqvrhrM@gros>
References: <6074373.YaYOqvrhrM@gros>
Message-ID: <55f791dc-e7f7-5cc6-c7d4-f64b6671c165@crowcastle.net>

I think we need to be sure that the clients are offering help on the 
local commands before we remove that help from the server.

I think what needs to happen is to have the client intercept the 'help' 
command, display the client-side commands, then send the command to the 
server for the server-side commands.  If asking for help on a specific 
command, the client would only pass it on to the server if the command 
didn't match a local command.

But we still have the problem of people using older clients with newer 
servers.

On 2021-05-06 12:26, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
> Hello.
>
>
> I'd like to remove server-side help files that pertain to client-side commands.
>
> I think that includes:
> - bind
> - nextkey
> - prevkey
> _ sort_inventory
> - unbind
>
>
> The rationale is that different clients don't necessarily have the same
> commands.
>
>
> Opinions?
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Nicolas
>
> _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
>
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From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sat May  8 16:54:37 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 14:54:37 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Git for arch, maps, server, and client
In-Reply-To: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
References: <41eef9e2-7087-bcb0-1125-06b4d6160ae8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <db99ae31-9531-0f36-84d0-2f0fbf75ab24@gmail.com>

Hi there,

I'm pleased to announce that all of the repositories hosted on the 
Crossfire SourceForge have been migrated to Git. Starting now, all new 
commits should be made to Git. These repositories are located at:

https://sourceforge.net/p/crossfire/_list/git

The SVN is now in read-only mode and will no longer be updated.

When committing to Git, please follow our Git commit policy:

1. To preserve linear history, no merge commits in 'master'. When
   merging branches into 'master', rebase the branch against 'master'
   and then do a fast-forward from 'master'.

2. Commit messages begin with a short, one-line summary, followed by a
   blank line, followed by more detailed explanatory text, if necessary.
   Lines are wrapped to approximately 72-ish characters.

Regards,
Kevin

From sourceforge at akirschbaum.de  Sun May  9 04:15:18 2021
From: sourceforge at akirschbaum.de (Andreas Kirschbaum)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 11:15:18 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Removing server-side help files for client-side
 commands
In-Reply-To: <55f791dc-e7f7-5cc6-c7d4-f64b6671c165@crowcastle.net>
References: <6074373.YaYOqvrhrM@gros>
 <55f791dc-e7f7-5cc6-c7d4-f64b6671c165@crowcastle.net>
Message-ID: <20210509091518.GA3222@localdomain>

Preston Crow wrote:
> I think we need to be sure that the clients are offering help on the
> local commands before we remove that help from the server.

JXClient has been updated accordingly.


> I think what needs to happen is to have the client intercept the
> 'help' command, display the client-side commands, then send the
> command to the server for the server-side commands.  If asking for
> help on a specific command, the client would only pass it on to the
> server if the command didn't match a local command.

JXClient now implements this suggestion: it intercepts the help command,
then prints a local help and/or sends the help command to the server.


> But we still have the problem of people using older clients with newer
> servers.

I would not worry too much about this issue: A missing help file for
some commands is not a big issue. The server does not even provide help
for all defined commands. Also, we do not have too many players and I'm
not sure how many of these actually use the help command.

From leaf at real-time.com  Sun May 23 03:29:40 2021
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 03:29:40 -0500
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
Message-ID: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>


Hello,


TL;DR
Should we move the official IRC channel of Crossfire from Freenode to
Libera ?


There has been a turn of events with Freenode, our current & official
IRC server host, that raise some concerns [1].

Seems https://libera.chat/ is the IRC host to move too. I've done the
legwork to get a properly reserved and registered #crossfire channel at
Libera.

So, let the questions and discussion begin as to whether or not
#crossfire should move to a new IRC 'home' - mainly Libera.




[1] - Some of the many sources that have reported on this event:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1339623-freenode-staff-quit-en-masse-after-secret-ownership-changes/

https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/19/freenode_staff_resigns/

https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html

From subscriptions at eracc.org  Sun May 23 15:34:16 2021
From: subscriptions at eracc.org (Poof)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 12:34:16 -0800
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20210523123416.54a0fc32@ealexhome.local>

On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:29:40 -0500
Rick Tanner <leaf at real-time.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> 
> TL;DR
> Should we move the official IRC channel of Crossfire from Freenode to
> Libera ?
> 
> 
> There has been a turn of events with Freenode, our current & official
> IRC server host, that raise some concerns [1].
> 
> Seems https://libera.chat/ is the IRC host to move too. I've done the
> legwork to get a properly reserved and registered #crossfire channel
> at Libera.
> 
> So, let the questions and discussion begin as to whether or not
> #crossfire should move to a new IRC 'home' - mainly Libera.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [1] - Some of the many sources that have reported on this event:
> 
> https://linustechtips.com/topic/1339623-freenode-staff-quit-en-masse-after-secret-ownership-changes/
> 
> https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/19/freenode_staff_resigns/
> 
> https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html

For what it is worth, my local FOSS group took a vote on this during the past week. They have moved to Libera.Chat and closed their Freenode channel last Thursday. I was on both networks for a bit, then moved my account(s) to Libera.Chat.

Gene Alexander
-- 
Mailing List Subscriptions - subscriptions at eracc.org

From ruben at mrbrklyn.com  Mon May 24 18:41:20 2021
From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 19:41:20 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <20210523123416.54a0fc32@ealexhome.local>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
 <20210523123416.54a0fc32@ealexhome.local>
Message-ID: <20210524234120.GA14347@www2.mrbrklyn.com>

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 12:34:16PM -0800, Poof wrote:
> On Sun, 23 May 2021 03:29:40 -0500
> Rick Tanner <leaf at real-time.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > 
> > TL;DR
> > Should we move the official IRC channel of Crossfire from Freenode to
> > Libera ?
> > 
> > 
> > There has been a turn of events with Freenode, our current & official
> > IRC server host, that raise some concerns [1].
> > 
> > Seems https://libera.chat/ is the IRC host to move too. I've done the
> > legwork to get a properly reserved and registered #crossfire channel
> > at Libera.
> > 
> > So, let the questions and discussion begin as to whether or not
> > #crossfire should move to a new IRC 'home' - mainly Libera.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [1] - Some of the many sources that have reported on this event:
> > 
> > https://linustechtips.com/topic/1339623-freenode-staff-quit-en-masse-after-secret-ownership-changes/
> > 
> > https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/19/freenode_staff_resigns/
> > 
> > https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html
> 
> For what it is worth, my local FOSS group took a vote on this during the past week. They have moved to Libera.Chat and closed their Freenode channel last Thursday. I was on both networks for a bit, then moved my account(s) to Libera.Chat.
> 
> Gene Alexander

The problem with this is that the drama sourounding Freenode has been
going around for decades and this is just the latest go around.  Aside
from the #crossfire is going through a discourse server?  Is that still
correct?  Seems that it becomes somewhat irrelevant.

> -- 
> Mailing List Subscriptions - subscriptions at eracc.org
> _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013


From leaf at real-time.com  Wed May 26 14:59:26 2021
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:59:26 -0500
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>

With the more recent changes and actions taken by Freenode staff, should
the project stay or continue to use their services?

https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491

(NSFW warning)
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409/

https://gist.github.com/shadowcat-mst/998cea12794768bdb3da2daeff31baad

https://twitter.com/philpem/status/1397453537936805895?s=11

https://twitter.com/gamingonlinux/status/1397469115846176769?s=11

In my view of the recent events, I would ask for reasons as to why the
Crossfire project should stay on Freenode.

It is also my view that #crossfire should move to Libera in early
June-2021 as a tentative timeline.



From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Wed May 26 15:27:49 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 22:27:49 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <2198062.yeXuMF5Fbl@gros>

Hello.


Fine for me to move.


Best regards


Nicolas


Le dimanche 23 mai 2021, 03:29:40 CEST Rick Tanner a écrit :
> Hello,
> 
> 
> TL;DR
> Should we move the official IRC channel of Crossfire from Freenode to
> Libera ?
> 
> 
> There has been a turn of events with Freenode, our current & official
> IRC server host, that raise some concerns [1].
> 
> Seems https://libera.chat/ is the IRC host to move too. I've done the
> legwork to get a properly reserved and registered #crossfire channel at
> Libera.
> 
> So, let the questions and discussion begin as to whether or not
> #crossfire should move to a new IRC 'home' - mainly Libera.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [1] - Some of the many sources that have reported on this event:
> 
> https://linustechtips.com/topic/1339623-freenode-staff-quit-en-masse-after-s
> ecret-ownership-changes/
> 
> https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/19/freenode_staff_resigns/
> 
> https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-se
> izes-control.html _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire

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From mail-lists+cfdev at dogphilosophy.net  Wed May 26 15:30:04 2021
From: mail-lists+cfdev at dogphilosophy.net (mail-lists+cfdev at dogphilosophy.net)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:30:04 -0600
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
 <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <706703a2-ab44-11d9-e212-665f801b25c9@bigroom.org>

What are the odds of getting a Crossfire channel on Matrix somewhere? 
(I've become a huge Matrix fanboy lately, I confess).

It does seem like Freenode has turned into a real shiFecal Entertainment 
lately. I've seen a lot of unrelated groups announcing they're dumping 
Freenode recently. I can't think of any reason to buck the trend there.

On 5/26/21 1:59 PM, Rick Tanner wrote:
> With the more recent changes and actions taken by Freenode staff, should
> the project stay or continue to use their services?
> [...]
> In my view of the recent events, I would ask for reasons as to why the
> Crossfire project should stay on Freenode.
>
> It is also my view that #crossfire should move to Libera in early
> June-2021 as a tentative timeline.
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From leaf at real-time.com  Wed May 26 17:20:10 2021
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 17:20:10 -0500
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <706703a2-ab44-11d9-e212-665f801b25c9@bigroom.org>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
 <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
 <706703a2-ab44-11d9-e212-665f801b25c9@bigroom.org>
Message-ID: <3121718e-eb72-ead2-a388-a80c88ad8246@real-time.com>

On 5/26/21 3:30 PM, mail-lists+cfdev at dogphilosophy.net wrote:
> What are the odds of getting a Crossfire channel on Matrix somewhere?
> (I've become a huge Matrix fanboy lately, I confess).

At the moment, Libera does not support(?) Matrix.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396920289641091079

"A big thanks to the lovely folk at @matrixdotorg
 who we just had a very constructive meeting with, we hope to be able to
offer matrix bridging soon. Thank you for your patience"


From nkipps at gmail.com  Sat May 29 01:25:08 2021
From: nkipps at gmail.com (Nathaniel Kipps)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 02:25:08 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <3121718e-eb72-ead2-a388-a80c88ad8246@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
 <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
 <706703a2-ab44-11d9-e212-665f801b25c9@bigroom.org>
 <3121718e-eb72-ead2-a388-a80c88ad8246@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <CAFOOzbarmuS9X6ADk8rXO7tCzZ0dk3Up4aAhOvhkYe7=ZjmO4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:51 PM Ruben Safir <ruben at mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
> Aside from the #crossfire is going through a discourse server?  Is that still
> correct?  Seems that it becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Yes, the freenode IRC channel is bridged to the Discord service. At
the moment there are ~150 members on the Discord side, of which ~50
have not visited it recently. If anyone has friends or acquaintances
who would like to discuss Crossfire topics, but would prefer Discord
over IRC, they are certainly welcome to join the Discord server with
this link: https://discord.gg/CCQqbqu The link can also be found on
the Crossfire website.

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:37 PM <mail-lists+cfdev at dogphilosophy.net> wrote:
> What are the odds of getting a Crossfire channel on Matrix somewhere?

I maintain the bridge to Discord, and the software backend is the
Matterbridge project. It would appear to support Matrix, and most
likely I could extend the bridge to perform a three-way (or more) sync
between multiple services.

I doubt it is particularly necessary to extend the bridge for the sake
of only one person, but I'm sure that's up for debate. Certainly if
you had several people who would benefit, it's probably worth looking
into.

I'm not familiar with Matrix or it's decentralized nature, so I might
need help from a Matrix veteran to get such a thing working. Someone
would also need to take responsibility for maintaining CF's official
presence on another platform, and be/appoint a moderator, etc.

--DraugTheWhopper

From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Sun May 30 02:37:28 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:37:28 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Finding maps and their location, moving around
Message-ID: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>

Hello.

I think one issue in the game is that many maps aren't easy to find or even to 
know that they exist.


Cases in point: three sisters valley, warrior's tower, castle Samorok, whaling 
output, things like that.

Merely being in town won't give much information, and if you start exploring 
the world, you'll take many days of randomly wandering...



For some, quests could be added so the player at least knows the map exist and 
is reminded to try to locate them. May be be "chaining" quests, that is when 
you complete one quest, some NPCs start giving hints on other quests?


About finding the maps, I see actually 2 issues, finding the maps the first time, 
then finding them again if you want to do them again.


The first time may incur some searching around the world, which isn't that fun 
considering that not much happens, and blocking mountains are a real pain...


Once found, it'll be the same issue when the player wants to find again the map 
- even if s.he remembers approximately the location, it's a pain to find 
again...


I added a long time ago a "GPS"-like system, that enabled to get back to one 
specific spot in the world map, but it isn't available anywhere. Should this be 
activated so players can easily find again some points in the world? Should we 
add "rough" maps that would guide players towards some location?


Should we invent some form of permanent portal, that a player could build in 
her/his apartments, then add destinations by being at the desired spot in the 
world maps? Something like town portal, but more permanent... Of course 
there's always the issue that it probably needs to be a high-costing item that 
would be really useful for low-level players... :s


Opinions? Ideas? Thoughts?


Best regards


Nicolas
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From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Sun May 30 02:44:09 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:44:09 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Private apartments versus guilds
Message-ID: <8162746.PspbbOD4i2@gros>

Hello.


I'm wondering on the use of guilds versus private apartments.


From what I see, the 2 major points of guilds are:
- having portals to many towns and places in the world - that is probably the 
most useful for me
- sharing items between players (or even your own characters)

Negative points are:
- there are only a few guilds, so not all players can join one
- guilds are expensive, and their crafting facilities have a nice price for 
use


On the other hand, private apartments provide:
- buildable areas
- free crafting facilities if you buy the relevant material (or add a 
cauldron)

They do lack "safe" item sharing, though.


With the addition of the bank's vault plane, this adds some buildable 
location, enabling a player to sleep there directly, from anywhere in the 
world.



So well, I'm wondering on what to change to make it more balanced...

Should the private apartments have also portals to other places in the world? 
Should they be connected once you bought them (so you can jump from Scorn to 
Darcap)?

Should the guilds be more opened, easier to join?



Ideas?



Nicolas
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From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sun May 30 13:51:31 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 11:51:31 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Private apartments versus guilds
In-Reply-To: <8162746.PspbbOD4i2@gros>
References: <8162746.PspbbOD4i2@gros>
Message-ID: <fa4fd479-691a-262a-2519-9581ac3019fa@gmail.com>

On 5/30/21 12:44 AM, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
>  From what I see, the 2 major points of guilds are:
> - having portals to many towns and places in the world - that is probably the
> most useful for me
> - sharing items between players (or even your own characters)

I think the various crafting benches in guilds are underutilized.

I would also be a fan of moving the entrance to "NetHack in Crossfire" 
to somewhere in the big world, so that you don't need to be a member of 
a guild to play.

I think the guild museum is kind of interesting.

In summary, the way I see it, guilds are for having fun playing with 
other players. I think the main problems with guilds now is that many 
seem inactive, and it's not easy to join an inactive guild.

I think something worth considering is a mechanism to return inactive 
guilds to new(er) players, either by some script or by some server 
policy. What do folks think about this?

> On the other hand, private apartments provide:
> - buildable areas
> - free crafting facilities if you buy the relevant material (or add a
> cauldron)
> 
> They do lack "safe" item sharing, though.

I'm currently working on a patch that, among other things, would allow 
players to visit each others' permanent apartments. More on this shortly.

> With the addition of the bank's vault plane, this adds some buildable
> location, enabling a player to sleep there directly, from anywhere in the
> world.

I think the astral vault might have some ramifications to balance, 
particularly in terms of the usefulness of apartments, that will be 
difficult to balance.

> Should the private apartments have also portals to other places in the world?
> Should they be connected once you bought them (so you can jump from Scorn to
> Darcap)?

I'm not a big fan of portals, see my response to the other thread.

Regards,
Kevin

From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sun May 30 13:56:01 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 11:56:01 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] IRC channel move from Freenode to Libera?
In-Reply-To: <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
References: <03aaff6b-39ac-9dd3-ac0f-7d99eeb9fb69@real-time.com>
 <96bed4aa-88f8-013a-a70d-2b37cf30ff4d@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <9becff3c-cf9a-2bf3-b09d-87b154b98413@gmail.com>

On 5/26/21 12:59 PM, Rick Tanner wrote:
> In my view of the recent events, I would ask for reasons as to why the
> Crossfire project should stay on Freenode.
> 
> It is also my view that #crossfire should move to Libera in early
> June-2021 as a tentative timeline.

I would support a move to Libera for similar reasons.

Fortunately, with the exception of the Discord bridge, this seems to be 
like a change where we can just pick up shop and put it down elsewhere.

I think it would be best if we could pick a date for an official move. 
That way, discussion doesn't need to proceed on two different channels.

It is May 30th when I'm writing this; is June 5th long enough for 
everyone who wants to be on IRC to move to Libera?

Regards,
Kevin

From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sun May 30 14:07:48 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:07:48 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] [PATCH] Add follow command for non-DMs,
 allow following into permanent apartments
Message-ID: <d71c7d8b-2d9b-8843-0df2-cb92a3dd950f@gmail.com>

Hi there,

The three patches attached here enable the 'follow' command for non-DM 
players. It allows players to follow each other, including through exits 
and permanent apartments.

When two players are on the same tiled map, this code simply calls
player_move() in the direction of the player being followed. If the
player being followed moves through an exit, that the exit object is
copied to a new field in the player structure. The follower then moves
to the exit (instead of the player) and applies the exit once on top.
This means that gates, check_inv's, and other forms of blocked movement
will still continue to be effective.

This patch reduces the possibility of abuse by requiring players be in 
the same party in order to follow each other. If the followed player 
leaves the party at any point, players can no longer follow them.

Patch 2 allows followers to follow into unique maps such as permanent 
apartments. This allows players to visit each others' permanent apartments.

I welcome your feedback and discussion about these changes here, or on 
the SourceForge tracker:

https://sourceforge.net/p/crossfire/patches/400/

Regards,
Kevin
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From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net  Sun May 30 14:15:40 2021
From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 21:15:40 +0200
Subject: [crossfire] Finding maps and their location, moving around
In-Reply-To: <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com>
References: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>
 <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10299719.2debEMrpRB@gros>

> Could you explain how that GPS system works?
> 
> What I've been thinking about this is to have a sort of Rhyzian amulet
> that can be set and reset. So, once a player finds something interesting
> on the world map, the could program (call it "imbune" or something)
> their amulet to point back towards their location.

It works exactly like that :)

You first 'reset' it to a specific origin, then when applied it'll tell you your 
position relative to that origin.

So eg '10, -13'.


And you can reset it anytime.


Best regards

Nicolas
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From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sun May 30 14:39:25 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:39:25 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Finding maps and their location, moving around
In-Reply-To: <10299719.2debEMrpRB@gros>
References: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>
 <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com> <10299719.2debEMrpRB@gros>
Message-ID: <de2ed44c-fa52-a1c8-025f-aba8c2023b6c@gmail.com>

On 5/30/21 12:15 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
>> Could you explain how that GPS system works?
>>
>> What I've been thinking about this is to have a sort of Rhyzian amulet
>> that can be set and reset. So, once a player finds something interesting
>> on the world map, the could program (call it "imbune" or something)
>> their amulet to point back towards their location.
> 
> It works exactly like that :)
> 
> You first 'reset' it to a specific origin, then when applied it'll tell you your
> position relative to that origin.
> 
> So eg '10, -13'.

I think this sounds like roughly what we want.

I think it would be more user-friendly if, like the Rhyzian amulet, the 
GPS just told the player which direction to move in.

I think it could also use a new name, because GPS (and Galileo, GLONASS, 
Beido, etc.) is a relatively recent invention.

Regards,
Kevin

From kevinz5000 at gmail.com  Sun May 30 13:45:54 2021
From: kevinz5000 at gmail.com (Kevin Zheng)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 11:45:54 -0700
Subject: [crossfire] Finding maps and their location, moving around
In-Reply-To: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>
References: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>
Message-ID: <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com>

On 5/30/21 12:37 AM, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
> I think one issue in the game is that many maps aren't easy to find or even to
> know that they exist.

I agree this is a problem, but don't have good ideas on this right now.

> For some, quests could be added so the player at least knows the map exist and
> is reminded to try to locate them. May be be "chaining" quests, that is when
> you complete one quest, some NPCs start giving hints on other quests?

Maybe we should spend some time making random NPCs in taverns and the 
like more talkative. Right now the dialog system encourages giving 
individual NPCs dialog, when what we really need is for random people to 
offer advice once in a while.

Other quest starting points are in library books; when I read the book, 
I start a quest encouraging me to go looking. We should have more 
quests, and more starts.

> Once found, it'll be the same issue when the player wants to find again the map
> - even if s.he remembers approximately the location, it's a pain to find
> again...
> 
> I added a long time ago a "GPS"-like system, that enabled to get back to one
> specific spot in the world map, but it isn't available anywhere. Should this be
> activated so players can easily find again some points in the world? Should we
> add "rough" maps that would guide players towards some location?

Could you explain how that GPS system works?

What I've been thinking about this is to have a sort of Rhyzian amulet 
that can be set and reset. So, once a player finds something interesting 
on the world map, the could program (call it "imbune" or something) 
their amulet to point back towards their location.

> Should we invent some form of permanent portal, that a player could build in
> her/his apartments, then add destinations by being at the desired spot in the
> world maps? Something like town portal, but more permanent... Of course
> there's always the issue that it probably needs to be a high-costing item that
> would be really useful for low-level players... :s

I don't like the idea of permanent portals. In my opinion, the 
teleporters in the apartment and guilds are already a bit much. Players 
should take advantage of means of transport that do exist, like the 
carts, ships, and dragon hangers. Maybe a good walk here or there.

Regards,
Kevin

From pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net  Sun May 30 16:42:52 2021
From: pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net (Preston Crow)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 17:42:52 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Finding maps and their location, moving around
In-Reply-To: <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com>
References: <3014550.OyrVfXciUn@gros>
 <77959348-5adc-d000-19dc-f9ff5e266ae3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028ae9c6-a0c8-424b-67fd-48593955e820@crowcastle.net>

On 2021-05-30 14:45, Kevin Zheng wrote:
> On 5/30/21 12:37 AM, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
>> I think one issue in the game is that many maps aren't easy to find 
>> or even to
>> know that they exist.
>
> I agree this is a problem, but don't have good ideas on this right now.
>

I think the problem here is that the density of places worth exploring 
on the world map is too low.  If we had more maps to find, exploring 
would result in stumbling on stuff all the time, which would result in 
lots more exploring.


From pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net  Sun May 30 16:50:03 2021
From: pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net (Preston Crow)
Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 17:50:03 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Private apartments versus guilds
In-Reply-To: <fa4fd479-691a-262a-2519-9581ac3019fa@gmail.com>
References: <8162746.PspbbOD4i2@gros>
 <fa4fd479-691a-262a-2519-9581ac3019fa@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e84b6057-7673-4624-885a-16e4e9f90379@crowcastle.net>

On 2021-05-30 14:51, Kevin Zheng wrote:
> On 5/30/21 12:44 AM, Nicolas Weeger wrote:
>>  From what I see, the 2 major points of guilds are:
>> - having portals to many towns and places in the world - that is 
>> probably the
>> most useful for me
>> - sharing items between players (or even your own characters)
>
> I think the various crafting benches in guilds are underutilized.
>
> I would also be a fan of moving the entrance to "NetHack in Crossfire" 
> to somewhere in the big world, so that you don't need to be a member 
> of a guild to play.
>
> I think the guild museum is kind of interesting.
>
> In summary, the way I see it, guilds are for having fun playing with 
> other players. I think the main problems with guilds now is that many 
> seem inactive, and it's not easy to join an inactive guild.
>
> I think something worth considering is a mechanism to return inactive 
> guilds to new(er) players, either by some script or by some server 
> policy. What do folks think about this?
>
I agree, but the solution that comes to mind is to make guilds into 
something where the maps are like apartment maps, only instead of being 
unique to a player, make them unique to a party.

This would mean changing around the party system to something where you 
can be a member of multiple parties, and making unique maps able to be 
per-party.  Or perhaps make all unique maps per-party, but create a 
default "just me" party for each character.

This then raises new questions, such as if you're in two parties that 
both have a guild in a city, which one do you enter when entering?  What 
can be done to encourage the use of guilds in different locations?  
Would this mean completely redesigning the guild system?

As to portals, I've gotten rid of the apartment portals on my server 
(crowcastle) in favor of a travel map that is a miniature of the world 
map, so you at least still get some sense of geography.  I haven't done 
anything about guild maps yet.