From leaf at real-time.com  Wed Aug 20 12:45:07 2025
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 12:45:07 -0500
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
Message-ID: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>

Currently, the barbarian class does not start with the literacy skill, 
which matches traditional lore for that class. However, (IMO) this 
approach does not work well in Crossfire.

Many in-game resources require the ability to read, meaning new players 
who choose a barbarian cannot access them. For example, barbarians begin 
with the Guide to Close Combat, but without literacy, they cannot read 
it. Likewise, the password hint on the Tutorial Map—which is required to 
leave the map—is also inaccessible. This has been a recurring problem 
when I demonstrate Crossfire at local gaming conventions.

Signs can still be read without literacy, which causes confusion, and 
skill scrolls are readable as well, creating further inconsistency.

To improve the new player experience and ensure barbarians have access 
to learning materials, I propose giving them the literacy skill by default.



From nkipps at gmail.com  Wed Aug 20 15:15:43 2025
From: nkipps at gmail.com (Nathaniel Kipps)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 16:15:43 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
References: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>

I concur with these thoughts, and agree with the proposal.

I would reconsider, if someone drafted a comprehensive plan to deal with
all the current issues. Such a plan would need to include some
justification for how barbarians can have "different but equitable"
gameplay. Ideally, a lack of literacy would be a permanent tradeoff for the
PC, similar to how Gaea followers cannot use weapons, or serpentmen cannot
use boots. The current system of allowing the barbarian to eventually learn
literacy is not great, especially since the player can eventually overcome
it with no permanent negative effects.

--Draug

On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM Rick Tanner <leaf at real-time.com> wrote:

> To improve the new player experience and ensure barbarians have access
> to learning materials, I propose giving them the literacy skill by default.
>
>
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From ruben at mrbrklyn.com  Thu Aug 21 02:40:51 2025
From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 03:40:51 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>

On 8/20/25 4:15 PM, Nathaniel Kipps wrote:
> The current system of allowing the barbarian to eventually learn
> literacy is not great, especially since the player can eventually
> overcome it with no permanent negative effects.


that is also just not true.  The ramp up and play of barbrian classes is
very hard past level 4.

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

From ruben at mrbrklyn.com  Thu Aug 21 02:39:05 2025
From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 03:39:05 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99ede6a8-89d0-4059-bf6e-ca4ef938d92f@mrbrklyn.com>

On 8/20/25 4:15 PM, Nathaniel Kipps wrote:
> I would reconsider, if someone drafted a comprehensive plan to deal with
> all the current issues. Such a plan would need to include some
> justification for how barbarians can have "different but equitable"
> gameplay. Ideally, a lack of literacy would be a permanent tradeoff for
> the PC, similar to how Gaea followers cannot use weapons, or serpentmen
> cannot use boots.


that is not the same.  Literacy is the core to player development,
especially learning the magic arts or Alchemy.  Preventing Geae from
weapons does nothing to prevent the charaters development.  And you can
always just change gods when you want to.  You can't do that if you
create chars that has races that can't read.

Sepentmen can't wear boots in NOTHING like not being able to read and
use books and scrolls.

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

From pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net  Thu Aug 21 05:12:16 2025
From: pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net (Preston Crow)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 06:12:16 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
References: <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
Message-ID: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>

I would think the right way to handle lack of literacy would be to have 
alternate text for critical things that is what is sent when someone 
without sufficient literacy skill tries to read it. Of course, this 
requires a bunch of work to add the new alternate text in a ton of 
places.  Another option is to use the skill level of what is being read, 
and if it's -1, someone without literacy skill could still read it.  
Just fixing up the obvious stuff in Scorn is probably sufficient.

That said, I'm not convinced that simply handing out the skill to start 
with isn't the right thing to do unless it's going to be impossible to 
ever get the skill.


From kts at kettek.net  Thu Aug 21 14:41:15 2025
From: kts at kettek.net (Ketchetwahmeegwun T. Southall)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 19:41:15 +0000
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>
References: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>
 <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
Message-ID: <3d2a7f9c9cad819d55f66703a8784447@kettek.net>

I certainly prefer having the barbarian being illiterate, as it adds to the game feel. However, for new players its certainly better to have information up front and accessible. Perhaps all "god-given" (starting) readables should always be readable? Otherwise, this should be declared as a strong initial limit to understanding the game in some sort of class description during character creation.

August 21, 2025 3:12 AM, "Preston Crow" <pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net> wrote:

> I would think the right way to handle lack of literacy would be to have 
> alternate text for critical things that is what is sent when someone 
> without sufficient literacy skill tries to read it. Of course, this 
> requires a bunch of work to add the new alternate text in a ton of 
> places.  Another option is to use the skill level of what is being read, 
> and if it's -1, someone without literacy skill could still read it.  
> Just fixing up the obvious stuff in Scorn is probably sufficient.
> 
> That said, I'm not convinced that simply handing out the skill to start 
> with isn't the right thing to do unless it's going to be impossible to 
> ever get the skill.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
> IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html
> Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html
> Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire
> Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org
> Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com

From ruben at mrbrklyn.com  Thu Aug 21 14:50:40 2025
From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 15:50:40 -0400
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <3d2a7f9c9cad819d55f66703a8784447@kettek.net>
References: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>
 <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
 <3d2a7f9c9cad819d55f66703a8784447@kettek.net>
Message-ID: <20250821195039.GA13839@www2.mrbrklyn.com>

How does an illeterate char read a literacy skill scroll?

I oppose blocking the char or any char, from deveopling a literacy
skill.  It is not like the Gaea limitation of no weapons and that can be
changed and it doesn't prevent a broad range of other skills from being
dveloped.


On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 07:41:15PM +0000, Ketchetwahmeegwun T. Southall wrote:
> I certainly prefer having the barbarian being illiterate, as it adds to the game feel. However, for new players its certainly better to have information up front and accessible. Perhaps all "god-given" (starting) readables should always be readable? Otherwise, this should be declared as a strong initial limit to understanding the game in some sort of class description during character creation.
> 
> August 21, 2025 3:12 AM, "Preston Crow" <pc-crossfire06 at crowcastle.net> wrote:
> 
> > I would think the right way to handle lack of literacy would be to have 
> > alternate text for critical things that is what is sent when someone 
> > without sufficient literacy skill tries to read it. Of course, this 
> > requires a bunch of work to add the new alternate text in a ton of 
> > places.  Another option is to use the skill level of what is being read, 
> > and if it's -1, someone without literacy skill could still read it.  
> > Just fixing up the obvious stuff in Scorn is probably sufficient.
> > 
> > That said, I'm not convinced that simply handing out the skill to start 
> > with isn't the right thing to do unless it's going to be impossible to 
> > ever get the skill.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > crossfire mailing list
> > crossfire at metalforge.org
> > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
> > IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html
> > Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html
> > Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire
> > Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org
> > Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com
> _______________________________________________
> crossfire mailing list
> crossfire at metalforge.org
> http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
> IRC: http://crossfire.real-time.com/irc/index.html
> Discord: http://crossfire.real-time.com/discord/index.html
> Project Site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossfire/
> Wiki: http://wiki.cross-fire.org/
> Website: http://crossfire.real-time.com

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013


From leaf at real-time.com  Thu Aug 21 15:10:23 2025
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 15:10:23 -0500
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <20250821195039.GA13839@www2.mrbrklyn.com>
References: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>
 <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
 <3d2a7f9c9cad819d55f66703a8784447@kettek.net>
 <20250821195039.GA13839@www2.mrbrklyn.com>
Message-ID: <6ecb7ab7-e234-4eb6-bf17-7f089554f6e3@real-time.com>


The scroll's lore explains that. :-)

skills/Skill_Scrolls/scroll_literacy.arc

msg
The runes on this scroll have a course texture which allows you to trace 
them with your finger to active the incantation.
endmsg

(Typo correction and wording update about to be committed...)

On 8/21/25 2:50 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> How does an illeterate char read a literacy skill scroll?
> 

From kbulgrien at att.net  Thu Aug 21 17:49:45 2025
From: kbulgrien at att.net (Kevin Bulgrien)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 22:49:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [crossfire] Barbarian class and literacy skill access by default
In-Reply-To: <6ecb7ab7-e234-4eb6-bf17-7f089554f6e3@real-time.com>
References: <71826031-d7f6-4a99-8297-b50fce203edf@crowcastle.net>
 <d12bbaa5-303e-4376-a3f8-37f43ce665a6@real-time.com>
 <CAFOOzbYdL2KgAs_XzU2ChmXNn2voLOZnAJDzC4hM+ML4UmtfcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <842f2741-026c-47bd-ba83-5e6b3c07151d@mrbrklyn.com>
 <3d2a7f9c9cad819d55f66703a8784447@kettek.net>
 <20250821195039.GA13839@www2.mrbrklyn.com>
 <6ecb7ab7-e234-4eb6-bf17-7f089554f6e3@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <1614825031.58459.1755816585565@mail.yahoo.com>

 What about some impossible to miss "quest" started as part of the character creation?Upon completion of the quest, the scroll is given to the character.
Not saying that literacy should not be granted from the outset, but its an idea to adda miniscule amount of depth.
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