I agree with both Mark and AV. I personally see acid and drain as two attack_types which as AV says, are so powerful that people quickly give out immunity because it annoys them so much. Then because everyone quickly gets immunity.. map makers don't mind putting it in for abit of fun. Drain also has the special quality that it will kill avatars in one hit making a grim reaper extar ordinarily powerful, thus players need immunity. The solution I would most be happy with is durability, and then being able to either pay for or use smithery to repair the item.. permanent damage occuring only after all the durability has been destroyed (which will set durability back to the initial value, but take the item down alittle (from +3 to +2)). This though as Mark has pointed out, is not always "fun" and that tends to be the important thing. Well I must point out that permanent damage to items is DEFN not fun, after spending 2000pp on that plus +4 sword then to have it taken back to +3 because of a naughty rust monster... (down the wells) did not make me think "fun" =). Ahhh well, it isn't "fun" dieing either, but in the long run it makes crossfire a much more fun game because it become a challenge... perhaps this is true of acid also? Drain doesn't pup up as much, or at least I haven't noticed it as much, because all the standard rings give immunity to it, so you hardly ever actually get affected at high levels by it. And what about adding life stealing? is that just adding insult to injury? if it is, we will need to give devourers something to balance, as life stealing was a major point in the changes. thought for food. dnh