[CF-Devel] Grrmphf

[dnh at hawthorn.csse.monash.edu.au]

Okay, this may go on.. we shall see..

Firstly, to Jan.

Jan, my changes are to BALANCE the gods, all or at least most of your
ideas do not do this. Infact that leave the god right where it is
currently. I make these changes because the gods NEED them, not because
they are pretty etc. (Although I am very happy with where things are
headed). Most gods have max weapons at around 10, because the realiance on
melee weapons in crossfire is HUGE!!!!!!!. If a player can't make a weapon
decent, then they have to change gods. Monks have it so tough, even with
meditation they have to get stat bonuses etc. As you said, fireborns can't
even hit some monsters, this is because of our reliance on melee weapons.
With EVERY example I can think off that a fireborn can't hurt a monster,
it will be fixed with PR, thus you begin to see why I am pushing this so
hard. Currently, a monster is either vunerable or immune at high levels,
so if a player is DEN anything it will be EXTRAORDINARLY hard to make a
living later on. A fireborn is fundementally flawed. I will refer to this
again later on.

You have made many suggestions which I consider "turning down". Take away
this, remove this.. etc..etc. I have added these extra strengths because
those gods are LACKING! Devourers is LACKING, Ruggilli is LACKING, infact
I think every god which you complained most strongly about happens to be
one of the weakest gods. My aim is to remove "weak" gods. If this means
adding things like immolation, and hp/gr stealing, I WILL! I have thought
long and hard about each idea and have scraped ALOT, the ones I present
are AFAICS very close to balanced. With minimal tuning I think players may
again start using Gnarg and Gorokh. I will now go through your message so
you can see alittle context.

>
     
     The list doesn't mention all special prayers that are given by the
     
     >
     
     gods.  For example, many gods currently teach the cause critical/many
     
     >
     
     wounds spells, but these spells are not mentioned anywhere in this
     
     >
     
     list.  Does this mean that they should still teach these spells?
     
     
No, if they aren't attuned to it they obviously wont, if they now are..
obviously they will. I have stopped gods like Lythander, from getting high
diseases. But I have also allowed devourers, the red death. I have play
tested that already by using a wraith and I can say, the red death isn't
as powerful as everyone makes out, infact it is very time consuming. While
I spent 30+ mins cleaning out the Giant castle (one of petes quests), Pete
managed to do it in under 10, with fire and holy word of mostrai. Sorry
off topic.

>
     
     Is 'max weapon modifications' equivalent to 'Weapons +10'?  If so, too
     
     >
     
     many gods give maximum item enchantments.  'Offensive' gods should give
     
     >
     
     medium weapon/bow enchantments, 'defensive' gods medium armour
     
     >
     
     enchantments.  Medium weapon enchantment is currently weapon +7.  High
     
     >
     
     enchantments (currently +11) should be reserved for one or at most two
     
     >
     
     gods.
     
     
Yes, I may make one god have +11, but that is after everything has been
tested.. For instance, I was going to allow mostrai to improve any item,
but obviously that is way to powerful without some serious balancing. I
would be prepared to do it, but everytime I get close. EVERYONE complains
that I am "spoiling" their favorite god. I ask, why is it your favorite?
and they say it is because it has no negatives. Do you see? I do these
changes because I am have played through crossfire to maxed levels I have
tried every god and alot of the most powerful combinations. I know
mostrai is strong devourers is weak, that is the purpose of these changes.
What I have done is what I consider fair, I am willing to trade some
things like vun confuse for speed -5.. I have done this. If you give me a
suggestion which will not change the current balance I will VERY happily
do it. 
Enchanting armour isn't a big deal, we are gonna have to make the armour
wiehgt increase anyway.. so it will only save money, not give a particular
god a big advantage. So what, Lythander will only improve to +5, it only
costs 1000 for more scrolls, and by the time a player has enough levels to
get their armour up to +5, they are gonna be able to afford plenty of
scrolls. Infact, improving armour was only a suggestion I made, because I
thought it fitting to allow gods to change it.. I didn't begin to think it
would change balance in anyway, just money.

>
     
     Mostrai was a simple god with no disadvantages and few advantages.  I
     
     >
     
     think it should stay a simple god.  If the goblins are no longer
     
     >
     
     Mostrai's enemies, followers of Mostrai will have a hard time getting
     
     >
     
     to medium wisdom levels.
     
     
Well, if you have troubles.. try a different god. Mostrai is piss easy,
infact roWer can get to level 10 in 15 mins with mostrai EVERYTIME! If I
can in anyway make mostrai add an extra 5 mins to that time I would be
happy (I know roWer is the best player out there score wise, so it is fair
for him to be able to do that). Mostrais, middle is so easy, you can kill
undead with holy word, demilich with avatar, and anything else with
weapon. There are no negatives. You say you want it simple? well how about
I make it simple and remove weapon magic, that would be the simple way to
make mostrai balanced, but that is not appropriate, I am trying to find
ways around that.

>
     
     Gnarg:
     
     
>
     
     Simple offensive god.  Even though it has an enemy race, its attack
     
     >
     
     power isn't focused on this race.
     
     
I have tried to achieve this already. basically anything attuned to
wounding is a god who has many enemies because it enjoys harming. The
major signifigance of this now is that draining will give gr points,
because the god rewards you for harming things. Draining is currently crap
because as you said, you get alot less points for killing things, so
obviously you will get only minimal gr and hp from draining.

>
     
     Weapons medium, bows low, armour low.
     
     This is what already have, I thought
>
     
     The poison spell is already very powerful (cause critical wounds easily
     
     >
     
     kills dragons).  Don't make it even more powerful.
     
     
i never said make it more powerful?! That stuff about strong poison was
for poisionous fog or its equivilent.

>
     
     I like the idea of a poisonous fog.
     
     >
     
     No hp regen +2.  Gnarg hurts and doesn't heal.
     
     
Okay I will remove it as it seems a popular choice.

>
     
     I'd prefer Goblin boots (Prot: draining, ac +1, armour 8, sp regen -1)
     
     >
     
     over a helmet.
     
     
Well, I wouln't wear boots that gave that if I was paid to. Sp -1? What a
stupid pair of boots. For the boots I would prefer to be much more
positive, but be rare. Remember ONLY gnarg players should be able to use
these items.. so basically it is a way of balancing gods at low levels,
and high levels.

>
     
     Vuln. fire would be a great disadvantage and fear just suits better.
     
     >
     
     Goblins aren't very smart and are easily frightened.
     
     
Hang on, I thought you just said "Gnarg hurts and doesn't heal", do you
really mean, "Gnarg doesn't heal.. but it protects"? sounds contradictory
to mean, protection is like healing. Infact the god of protection also
happens to be the god of healing (Valriel).

On Gnarg: Gnarg is a SUPER sucky god because its holy word is completely
pointless. Poison is a crappy attack as it is slow as all hell, and Gnarg
gives no real positives. As an "assassin" one would expect gnarg to be a
good god for sneak attacking and spells that fast and silient. Poisionous
fog for example, would be fairly unnoticeble (In real life) but would be a
VERY effective tool of assassination. Perhaps Gnargs boots should give
stealth?

>
     
     Lythander:
     
     
>
     
     Defensive god, but master of bows.
     
     
Defensive god? I hardly think so... "Elven Deity of Luck, Huntsman of
Goblins, Trollslayer, The Trickster". Sounds as nasty as Gnarg, a huntsman
of Goblins.. Trollslayer. Lythander is a mean god who enjoys tricking
things. Lythander would be so busy tricking people it wouldn't bother with
armour.

>
     
     Weapons low, bows high, armour medium.
     
     
This is what I have already?

>
     
     I think Lythander could teach the 'defense' spell.
     
     
No? Defense is not Lythanders game.

>
     
     New prayer to enchant arrows.  You put some arrows and some body parts
     
     >
     
     of goblins or trolls on an altar of Lythander and invoke this prayer.
     
     >
     
     Lythander will take the sacrifice and add attacktype: paralyze,
     
     >
     
     protected:
     
     >
     
     fire, cold, electricity to the arrows.
     
     
Cool idea, I have put it in. I have been thinking about arrows for ages, I
think you have made a very good solution =) Thanks.

>
     
     No "conflict" spell.  This seems to be impossible to balance.
     
     >
     
     Immunity: confusion, paralyze.
     
     
hey, if pete wants to put Conflict, I am all for it. A brilliant idea, its
all about confusing and tricking the opposition. Balance? That is easy for
things like this.. you can very easilty make a nasty spell balanced by
adding appropriate amounts of gr or speed of casting etc etc.

>
     
     Boots (speed +2).  Bolts of adamantite (with 100% chance of breaking).
     
     
Speed? no... Stealth? Bolts of Adamantite? perhaps lythander should turn
arrows to Adamant with the sacrafice of golbin bits.. say, a head gives
the arrows adamantite?
>
     
     Mostrai:
     
     
>
     
     Simplest god, neither offensive or defensive, no disadvantages, and
     
     >
     
     only small advantages except the enemy race which is Mostrai's most
     
     >
     
     interesting property.
     
     
hehe, no disadvantages?? You a dwarf, strong yes, resistant.. hardly. I
would think back to the hobbit.. and the spiders coming from the tree..
the dwarfs lasted all but a few seconds. They are hardly, but certainly
have their weaknesses...

>
     
     Weapons high, bows low, armour medium.
     
     
Bows? Heck no... "Dwarven Diety of Metal Smithing". I have yet to see a
metal bow in a fanatasy game.. let alone all of em. I would think Mostrai
would not only not touch bows, but shun their shoddy wooden construction.
(Dwarves and elves aren't on the best of terms because of this ;)

>
     
     No interesting spells, only wall of thorns.
     
     
That is what I have, I haven't changed that.

>
     
     No holy possession, at least no holy possession with immunities.
     
     
What I have

>
     
     No vulnerabilities.
     
     
I have already said what I think of that.

>
     
     The avatar of Mostrai should make less damage, but still have the
     
     >
     
     same number of hit points.
     
     
Mostrais avatar is fine. With changes I will obviously make it move
slower.

>
     
     Removing goblins from Mostrai's enemies will make it more difficult
     
     >
     
     for followers of Mostrai to advance in wisdom levels.
     
     
WAHHH!? Mostrai HAAAATTTEEESSSS Goblins, most of the maps talk of mostrais
hatred of Golbins. That is just fundementally wrong.

>
     
     Maybe helmet of Mostrai (ac +2, magic +2, high armour value) to help
     
     >
     
     low level followers because dwarfs are always hit on the head...
     
     
Well that is kinda what I had in mind yes. Remembering this is a VERY high
level item that may even be slighty under powered. I am planing to give
this one away about level 50 wisdom. By that stage players are drinking a
potion of fire and running along corridors of Dragons.

>
     
     Gaea:
     
     
>
     
     Defensive god.
     
     
Yup

>
     
     No weapon improvements, bows low, armour medium.
     
     
HAHA obviously no weapon improvements =) You can' equip it to get em =))
I am also against bows, Gaea is the most anti violence there is. Bows are
weapons, gaea wouldn't be to pleased about them, if she does realise they
are necessary even for her followers.. to survive. Anything we add will be
to defense.

>
     
     Daylight, insect plague, wall of thorns.
     
     
WAll of thorns? no.. agressive spell..

>
     
     New prayer "earth shield" which improves both armour value and
     
     >
     
     armour class.
     
     
Added

>
     
     New prayer "elemental shield" which gives protections against
     
     >
     
     fire, cold and electricity.
     
     
added

>
     
     I like the "sanctuary" spell, but I wouldn't implement this face of
     
     >
     
     death like spell.
     
     
I like both.

>
     
     Normal potions of healing would be ok.
     
     
Well, currently no one has objected.. and AndreasV has already draw
graphics for it.

>
     
     Ruggilli:
     
     
>
     
     Offensive god, even if followers can't use weapons.  This should be
     
     >
     
     the perfect god for Quetzalcoatls and Fireborns.  This god combines
     
     >
     
     extreme advantages with extreme disadvantages.
     
     
Bleh.. I don't like that at all. Ruggilli should be a god for ALL players.
I don't worry about Fireborn and Qs... they get so stuffed later on that
they are impossible to balance later on.. that is the price you pay for
getting an easy start.

>
     
     Weapons low, bows medium or high, no armour enchantments.
     
     >
     
     Holy rage is a nice spell.
     
     
Yup... still thinking about it..

>
     
     Immolation looks interesting but I don't know how difficult it is
     
     >
     
     to get it balanced.
     
     
immolation is the coolest thing so far said. (no pun intended)
It is everything ruggilli is, plus it is completely new.. and it is
already coded.

>
     
     Should get the simple wounding spells (no disease spells).
     
     
it wont get any disease. (except the common ones)

>
     
     Retributive strike as the most powerful attack.
     
     
I hate that spell with avengance. I would be happy to see it gone. If it
comes to it though, ruggilli can haveit.. but immolation shuold be a
better substitute.

>
     
     I wouldn't change the attacktypes and weapons are only of minor
     
     >
     
     importance. 
     
     
Very wrong here, the reason I change the attack_types is because ruggilli
is now an enemy of every (bah itself) this means draining will steal hp
AND gr. Instead of praying, followers who are given the Drain attack_type,
plus Gnarg (Will have to find a weapon with drain, this property is
actually based on attuned wounding) will get gr faster by hitting
monsters. Ruggilli is the god of chaos blah blah etc.. i find praying
alittle funny =)

The followers of Ruggilli wreck havoc using prayers.

Now this is a funny point, cause I tend to think of it the otherway, they
are current repelled to ice.. so they don't make great sorcerers.. (only
dangerous to ice creatures... which aren't worth many points in the long
term). I would like ruggilli to be a super attacking warrior.. that has to
fight to survive... thus things like Trolls might be better suited than
things like fireborn which wont get many advantages at all from ruggilli.

>
     
     Bolts with attacktype: weaponmagic to compensate the disadvantage of
     
     >
     
     Fireborns that they can't use weapons.  Sometimes the only way to damage
     
     >
     
     an enemy is using bows.
     
     
Nah. immolation, plus new drain should allow some nasty pasty high level
chars. At very high levels something might be added to compensate for real
lack of firepower against fire creatures.

>
     
     Sorig:
     
     
>
     
     Rather offensive god, but with some defensive capabilities, master
     
     >
     
     of electricity.
     
     
Well no.. actually sorig aint really offensive at all.. sorig is a
peaceful god who can get angry, but usually doesn't hold grudges etc..
thus they have enemies NONE! Divine shock etc are spells which are used
when sorig gets angered, but other than that Sorig doensn't give much out.

>
     
     Weapons medium, bows medium, armour low.
     
     
hmm, sort of what I have already.

>
     
     There aren't that many electricity prayers right now.  I wouldn't like
     
     >
     
     forked lightning if it's another cone spell.  I'd prefer this "holy
     
     >
     
     lightning" (finger of death like spell), and a "thunderstorm" spell
     
     >
     
     that casts various non-magical electricity spells in the vicinity of
     
     >
     
     the caster for an extended period of time.
     
     
Don't like thunderstorm.. we have already started work on Windstorm..
which is a physical gush of wind.. not to sure where that will fit in..
but its such a cool spell ill find somewhere ;)

>
     
     Simple wounding spells.
     
     >
     
     New "headwind" prayer.  Reflects spells and missiles.
     
     
Well yeah.. wounding? Everything gets wounding spells.. I thought you
could buy them? Perhaps I been playing CVS to much. I don't like wounding
spells much at all.. just not a god like spell.

>
     
     A new prayer to start flying, and another one to stop flying.
     
     >
     
     Powerful avatar.
     
     
Bleh, flying sucks.. very very little point in spending time making that.
Avatar is powerful. One of the fastest movers with a nice amount of
health.. at high levels those things can cane serious arse.

>
     
     Devourers:
     
     
>
     
     Offensive god, enemy of all living things.
     
     
Yup, thus it has attuned wounding, drain advantage.

>
     
     Weapons medium, bows low, armour low or no armour enchantments.
     
     
Well, erm.. I haven't worried about bows.. doesn't seem a very DEATH like
weapon currently. Given devourers shield upgrades.. i don't really know
why.. just sounded good at the time.. I can change that.

>
     
     All disease and death spells, simple wounding spells.
     
     
Not all diseases.. only red death infact. Small pox is rather nasty at all
levels, where as red death only takes effect later on. Later on is when
devourers starts to fade because of the complete lack of fire + vun fire.
(Net result dragons kick your arse.. and you can't hurt chinese dragons..
etc)

>
     
     I don't like weapon attacks that heal the attacker in any way, because
     
     >
     
     differing weapon speed, class and damage will make it almost impossible
     
     >
     
     to balance this.
     
     
Not at all. Everything can be balanced with enough time.. that is why im
doing this. I am not worried about balance for each particullar idea. I
Just want a reasonable list of ideas that will allow enough choice to
balance.

>
     
     I would prefer a prayer that drains the victim's life and heals the
     
     >
     
     caster, either once or for an extended period of time like poison.
     
     >
     
     Nightfall spell.
     
     
Bleh, I don't like that.. I like devourers getting in and sucking their
victims up close and personal, it's the undead's touch that kills.. 

>
     
     I can't say much about Creeping Frost because I don't know this spell,
     
     >
     
     but Devourers already gives many powerful spells.
     
     
Well, I have removed it.. it isn't really needed now..

>
     
     Attacktype cold would fit.
     
     
Not needed.. 

>
     
     I wouldn't add fear attacktype because Devourers already gives many
     
     >
     
     attacktypes.  Leave fear for other gods.
     
     
Removed.

>
     
     BTW, I don't like weapons with drain attacktype because I got much less
     
     >
     
     experience when fighting with these weapons.
     
     
BTW, that is precisely why i am changing it. Drain currently sucks.

>
     
     Gorokh:
     
     
>
     
     Offensive god, focused a bit on its enemy race.
     
     
Yup.

>
     
     Weapons medium, bows medium, armour low.
     
     
Nah, I don't like the bows.. Bows for angels, tridents for demons.. that
is the way of things ;)))

>
     
     Simple wounding spells.
     
     
Yup.

>
     
     New "gates of hell" spell.  You point at an enemy, and the gates of
     
     >
     
     hell open behind him for a moment.  Effect is a large fireball, like
     
     >
     
     retributive strike, but with fire attack.
     
     
Well, except for LARGE part of fireball.. that is EXACTLY what Hell fire
does already. And it is a VERY crappy spell.. I don't like Gates of Hell
at all.

>
     
     New spells that summon a daemon which enters the caster's body and makes
     
     >
     
     him a ferocious fighter for quite a while.  It could be two spells:
     
     >
     
     One for a daemon with high offensive capabilities, another spell for a
     
     >
     
     daemon with medium offensive and medium defensive capabilities.
     
     >
     
     Substituting attacktype slow for attacktype fear.
     
     
has alot of potential.. but i am not going to code it.. nor I think would
pete.. so if you want to do it.. ill put it in.

>
     
     I hate attacktype confusion because it makes your opponent much stronger
     
     >
     
     in hand-to-hand combats:  He makes a step aside, you miss him, you pass
     
     >
     
     by, and he cast some spells at you (or in any direction, firebullets
     
     >
     
     can damage you indirectly even if they hit a wall, and cone spells
     
     >
     
     cover a large angel).
     
     
Does this need changing? i don't really know.. It can be removed.. people?


>
     
     Thus, confused monsters are often more dangerous
     
     >
     
     than monsters with any regular movement type.
     
     >
     
     Immunities (holy possession): Slow, paralyze, confusion, fear.  That's a
     
     >
     
     lot, but there are also many items with these immunities, and Gorokh
     
     likes

Yeah, that is why alot of gods suck.. the immunities they give are to easy
to get already.. but that is fine.. we just give those gods other things
to make up for that. Infact I think that is one of the reasons you may not
be realising why I make alot of these big changes.. such problems like
that are what make the difference between say Gnarg and Mostrai.

>
     
     hand-to-hand combats, where these effects are rather nasty compared to
     
     >
     
     casting spells at the enemy from a safe distance.
     
     
hmm

Valriel:

>
     
     Defensive god, except for the enemy race.
     
     
Yes.

>
     
     Weapons low, bows low, armour medium.
     
     
? well i spose.. but we gonna need to give Valriel plenty of stuff, its
sucks alot right now..

>
     
     Defense spell.
     
     
Yup, what though?

>
     
     All resurrection spells.
     
     
Mmmehh.. resurrection is only for permadeath.. I don't really care about
that.. cause I have never played permadeath.. if permadeath players wont
it.. add it I will.

>
     
     Some kind of regeneration spell that doesn't consume
     
     food. 

Sure... ill put it in now.

>
     
     New "holy shield" spell that decreases ac a lot and also reflects
     
     >
     
     missiles.
     
     
Hmm...

>
     
     Attacktype fear is one of the more powerful attacktypes because a
     
     >
     
     frightened enemy will run away and has little time to strike back.
     
     >
     
     I wouldn't add other attacktypes, but blinding is reasonable.
     
     
Yeah well, I would like to remove it myself.. but valriel needs it.

>
     
      It
     
     >
     
     fits the picture of a god that prevents the monsters from attacking.
     
     >
     
     Permanent glow is often nasty, but a prayer that makes you glow
     
     >
     
     would be ok.
     
     
??? Permaglow is nothing more than infravision made pretty. I can't see
why you would think it is nasty. It is fairly irrelevant.. dark vision etc
are just as good..

>
     
     Immunity confusion, fear, blinding.
     
     
added blinding.

Sorry for getting agro at the start.. but sometimes things can bite even
though they may seem to have no reason to. It bites me that you are
tending to want to remove everything we have done.. while that may not be
true.. it is what im feeling.. 

PS. please note the crossfire_gods.html is JUST ideas.. it is not meant
for comparisons etc. just for temp ideas I have.. now all ideas are put
into crossfire_pantheon.html. Please only refer to that from now on unless
something in there is not well explained and you want to refer back.

Now Mich, the gripe I have is with caps. I am strongly against caps
because I believe they are a cheap way to get around a difficult problem.
For games where the team focus on prettyness ect, caps are set because
spending the time balancing is not in their interests. Crossfire is VERY
VERY different. Firstly, Pete and I don't even care about the graphics...
all we care about is Gameplay Gameplay Gameplay. We don't want to see
crossfire follow the lines of the other games and just cap everything they
can't handel. While caps on things like player stats are necessary to
create some uniqueness between characters, that is ALL I would ever want
to add. If a wizard can become a better warrior than a warrior.. we want
to make sure that the wizard must also get plenty of negs to make it
stupid to try. This is what we have done, a wizard would not want all the
armour of a barbarian.. cause they can't cast and they are very slow. With
such a low str, big armour is not an issue.. even heavy weapons are bad..
ask roWer, his favorite weapon is the unicorn horn. That is all he uses
(and all he ever plays is Wizard), why.. because we have managed to
balance it well enough that it is better to go light than heavy for a
wizard. Do you see how much better this is? Caps are breaks against
mathematics, they are simply a set a values to limit a formula. I don't
want to do that, because if crossfire is based only on formulas it can be
extended for ever. Look what has happen, with caps on hp, warriors get
stuffed because they quickly reach 540 hp, then the only way they can go
is magic. It would be alot better to allow warriors to keep going for con,
but in doing so reduce the option of sp. This COULD be achieved by
allowing weapon improvements to go above the max stat of the class, but
that is may be very hard to maintain, as a warrior might be able to put
EVERYTHING onto con, and so end up with a mega char. Perhaps in doing so
they will end up sacraficing to much.. that would be MUCH cooler than the
current 540 limit. While it is not a direct corrilation, PR should be the
same, and I expect it would be. Wizards don't like heavy armour.. so we
just make sure light armour is balanced properly.. =) So much more simple
than adding stupid caps everywhere... and having to move them around
constantly.. everytime a new monster is added that exploits another
weakness that a particualar char may have because of low caps preventing
fire etc.

Anyway, don't try to compare crossfire with other games, we want a unique
and different game that has drawn from other games to begin with, but
steped its own way into far greater things.

PS. Michael, my brother has redone linux client so it now has smooth
scroll, support for any size tile and alpha channel invisibility, perhaps
you will want to add those things so that the clients wont be to
different. Also we have experimented with Fish eye, soon we'll release a
client and players can say what they think of that one =). it fits more
map in, and looks cool.. but also looks like you walking on a sphere, and
gives motion sickness fast =)))

Pete, 

Agreed on conflict.
Special arrows covered by Jan's idea.

Regen +2 is removed.

Vuln fear? We are talking about the god of TROLLS as well as goblins..
infact it is the god of ASSASSINS in general. I would think you would have
to be pretty darn fearless to be an assassin.

Small pox will be given, Red death wont.

Wall of thorns is aggressive, thorns etc.. I don't like it for Gaea. if it
slowed down players etc, perhaps in might be considered though ;))

Sharpening sounds good. I think that is what Bless already does though.

Agreed on Gaea.

Do I DEN Wounding and Death? It would be happy to.. but want to hear it
from a few people.

Sanctuary I think should stop the elements as well, fire, cold, elec. It
shouldn't be to powerful, as gaeans can't do much damage anyway.

Enemy god: All = Draining -> gr and hp. But no holy word. Basically it is
my way of saying what is already there. Ruggilli hates everyone, and so
will quite happily kill anything.. thus the draining reflects this idea.
Holy word for ruggilli never even crossed my mind.

Well, I wasn't sure.. ill change it now.

Sorig: mmhmm, general consensus? I don't like attuned wounding.. only for
"special" gods. Windstorm is added, I feel this shuold have very minimal
damage as a physical attack type on a cone is nothing but powerful =). Add
it, but require some clever balancing.

Gorokh: I quite like Flaming Aura.. funny thing is it will kill everything
on the ground (items) as you walk around.. =) have to be careful not to
hurt the wrong things =)) Acid? yeah its a possibility.. consensus?
Agreed on large fireball etc..

Valriel: well I keep saying to you its in a hole right now. We need
something that will give valriel some okay points at beginning.. I plan to
boost avatar alittle.. possibly Gorokhs too.

Well this ends my largest post ever, sorry if it offends anyone, it isn't
meant to. If you are feeling really pissed off with me.. PLEASE PLEASE
PLEASE.. either send me a message in private or come onto irc and abuse me
=). (#crossfire on IRCnet)

Again, this is only meant to get the message across that I have not taken
to some of the responses well, I am easily aggravated. I really don't want
to start a war, or a pointless flame war. I hope this is the last message
I send with this tone.... =((

dnh


ps. Mark about that, can you tell me a time when you will more than
probably be able to come on.. 9pm your time is GREAT for me.. cause I have
just got home and am reading through messages etc etc.