Hmm I think, we shouldn't really have any classes with > 20 for any of the major attack types (fire, ice, elec). It makes the game unplayable or not fun in most cases. For example, the troll currently gets fire -30, that means with every single fire improving item it can only get to 69 fire resistance. This makes life very dull. It would be alot better if 80 could be attained, this at least would be useful against demons etc. But to be honest, I get the defn feeling having no vuns is alot more important than any other factor. dnh