[crossfire] blasphemy, vulgarities etc.

[Wim Villerius]

On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 19:05 +0200, Yann CHachkoff wrote:

> > My main concern was however the language use of NPC's. I don't remember
> > which NPC's this concerns, but some use expressions that are forbidden
> > on Metalforge.
> >
> I disagree. If the NPC represents somebody that uses rude language, so be
> it. As long as the usage doesn't become excessive, I see no reason to
> change that *if that fits the character depicted*. I'd easily understand
> that an "upset" NPC or a gruesome pirate to use rude words; OTOH, for most
> NPCs, that would be inappropriate.
As Mark already wrote, it's about consistency. Why prohibit players the
use of certain words if NPC's can use it?

> > Another issue is the naming of certain maps monsters. I guess angels -
> > and especially arch angels - might upset some people, not to mention the
> > appearance of 'holy ghosts' in Valriel's church.
> >
> Huh, what ? I strongly disagree with this. Angels are a concept found in
> just about all mythologies (including the judeo-christian one); they are
> present in the "collective cultural background" of many players. Why the
> heck representing angels should ever be a concern ? Who exactly would be
> offended, outside of a couple of fundamentalists ?
What exactly do you disagree with? Disagreeing that someone might
possibly be upset by the use of angels (and holy ghosts)? It's the only
thing I said, without suggesting that they should be removed. 

> Let's make my point clear on this: just because some symbols are used in
> real-world mythos and religions doesn't mean it is forbidden or offending
> to use them in another context. Religions depicted in Crossfire are
> fictional ones, and claim no relationship with real-world ones.
And that's exactly why there is no single reason to these symbols and
names, for there is no relationship with real-world religions ;-)
This becomes even a stronger argument when we're talking about symbols
and names that are highly important for a religion.
Do you remember the fuss about those few Danish cartoons? That's not
(only) because people like to riot. It's also one (out of many) of the
reasons why it's a good thing that crossfire religions do not match with
real-world religions, and that's why it's a good thing to minimalize the
use of (important) names and symbols (is there any difference?) from
real-world religions, such as 'holy ghost', 'Jesus', 'JWHW', etc.

> Making that position clear in the user's guide (maybe it is already ?)
> seems good; OTOH, I'm opposed to start removing/changing creatures on the
> sole pretext a couple of fundamentalists could consider their religion has
> a monopoly on them.
So we ban excessive use of rude words and don't want to create maps
containing mature content for those little children. We also don't want
to include political statements for the few players from China, nor do
we allow anti-woman rights rants because that's offending, but we don't
care for religious players that find it a bit offending that the name of
their god is used in the game?

> About holy ghosts - if anybody creates problems with that name (hey !
> that's  something that belongs to christians, remove that, it is insulting
> !), I suggest reading them the following explanation from the notorious
> Compendium  Khelentika, written by nobody else than the famous wizard
> Dhelyy Olyy himself:
Eh, that's what I would call 'post hoc justification', making some lore
with the sole purpose to 'allow' the existence of something odd :)

> "Shadow-like creatures, born from the spirit of deceased priests of
> Valriel,  that defended the Temple of Valriel of Kaïrudan when it was
> attacked by the Arch-Demon Zurnad, during the Dark War impressed Valriel
> so much by their bravery and their devotion that the god blessed them and
> their descendants, protecting them by a part of its holy aura. Since that
> time, they are called  'holy ghosts' for obvious reasons. It is considered
> an honor by monks of Valriel to be reincarnated in a holy ghost."
You could name them "blessed souls", that fits the story as well.

> > Also fighting devils or demons could be too much for some, especially
> > when it comes to Demon Lords ;-)
> >
> Again, I think it is excessive. Just about every mythos has demons and
> devils, which are basically nothing more than the embodiement of "bad
> principles". In most mythos, there's a "hierarchy of evil", just as
> there's one on the "good side", hence the idea of Demon lords - those are
> leaders in the ranks of the demons.
Yes, I agree that it would be excessive to remove them, though that is
not what's under discussion.

> If we start that way, then why not banning dwarves (they're an insulting
> joke to players affected by nanism) or elves (they are an insulting
> caricature of ecologists, and, besides that, we may displease fans of
> Tolkien) ? 
Dwarves insulting? heh, they're pretty strong folk. I would rather
consider hobbits as offending ;-)
> I agree that we shouldn't offend existing religious groups, but
> this seems to go way too far IMHO.
I agrree that it would go way too far if we indeed remove angels and
demons, even though I think there must be a better name, since
crosfire's angels and demons don't fit the concepts most people have
about them. Demons and angels are, as you say, followers of evil c.q.
good - which suggests that there are only two ways. In crossfire there
are many ways, and - as far as I'm aware of - in no polytheistic
religion, there are demons or angels. And that makes sense when good nor
bad are 'copyrighted' by a single cult.

> > And the entry to '/euthville/devil.church1' - a building filled with
> > devils - is for some reason not manifest to me called 'jesus weeping'
> > (see as well the name of /eutville/devil.church3). Does this game bring
> > the gospel? ;-)
> >
> Well, the game initially used "God" and "Satan" for the two Gods named now
> Valriel and Gorokh. The "Jesus Weeping" map dates back in the early days
> of Crossfire, when that still was true, and the CF mythos wasn't really
> defined. I think it would be a good idea to rename it to something like
> "Valriel Weeping" or anything else more in sync with the current CF
> mythos.
Yep, and couldn't it be that the name 'holy ghost' is another remainder
of these old days? ;-)