[crossfire] Project: Slow down combat (vs magic)

[Kevin R. Bulgrien]

Playing with permadeath on ailesse recently has been very enlightening.  I have
a very hard time keeping characters alive, so I've finally become so frustrated
that I have been trying out different characters.  Those experiences are making
me have a different viewpoint on slowing down combat than I had during the vote
since I've had to play many low-level characters.

In short, magic use is terrible.  If you choose to play a magic-use only player,
you are totally and completely disadvantaged.  A magic-only user will die very,
very easily, and will level very, very slowly compared to a physical combat
character.

> > Maybe large area spells will be used for fast monsters, so you're sure to hurt 
> > them? Or for monsters less powerful than you?
> 
>   If the change is such that large area effect spells are not so useful, that 
> may not be bad.
> 
>   Larger effect spells, like fireball, will still have their uses.  If monsters 
> are far away, things like fireball still quite useful (the cone spells have a 
> more limited range).  Also, so long as each space of a big monster takes damage, 
> large spells still have some advantage there.
> 
>   I'm sure these changes will require rebalancing of spells, but that is also on 
> the list of things to do, so I'm less worried about spells right now, but just 
> trying to keep it in mind.

They already need re-balancing.

> >>   So if the hp disparity between players and monsters is sorted out, and we
> >> say it is reasonable to cast 10 spells to kill tough creatures, that means
> >> it would take 10 spells to kill a same level player.  That to me is quite
> >> reasonable.

>   that's always the potential.  However, it also depends on difference of HP 
> based on level.  If say a level 10 character has 100 hp, and a level 50 has 500 
> HP, that is only a difference of 5, so even then, unlikely 1 hit will kill a 
> character, since target would be 10 spells for 500 hp damage (or 50 dam/spell). 
>   That said, things like resistances, slaying, etc, can all mix things up.

>   that one of the interesting things about giving characters more starting hp. 
> If characters start at say 50, and at level 10 have 150, that is a 3 times 
> improvement, so would still generally take 3 spells from that 10th level person 
> to kill that level 1 person.
> 
> > 
> >>   I think if hp is adjusted, grace and mana would have to go up also. 
> >> Simply because if creatures have 50 hp, and we say the target is 10 spells
> >> to kill a creature, a player will need to have the grace/mana to cast those
> >> 10 spells.
> > 
> > Possibly, yes, else you run the risk of making spells harder - unless they are 
> > compensated later on with really powerful things?

No!  Do not make them harder.  They are already harder.

The more I see in this discussion, the more I agree with other sentiments on
thread by Juha Jäykkä <juolja at csc.fi>, and on an IRC commentary by Michael
Toennies.  I am thinking more and more that any change here needs to be
looked at with a system perspective first, and not tackled piece by piece.
At the same time I say that, I do not know how one pulls that off very well
with a distributed development team where only e-mails, irc, etc are the
available ways of communicating, so, then I wonder how possible suggesting
such a thing is.

>   Maybe, but I think it would be very boring to play a mage in that case - cast 
> a couple spells, maybe not kill anything with them, have to rest to regain mana, 
> cast some more spells, etc.  One goal is to balance things such that mages and 
> fighters are both fairly equal at all levels, so I think low level mages need to 
> be effective.
> 
>   With the changes, it may be some different spells are needed - maybe 1st level 
> firebolt and the like.

I really think I would vote differently today, and if work on one thing or
another had to be done, rather than a rework of the entire system, I think I
would now say that magic should be adjusted before attempting to slow down
combat.

> > Yes, of course, but we're talking of redoing the whole combat system in the 
> > first place ;)
> 
>   Right - I'm open to this, but would like to hear more discussion on this - do 
> people generally think it is a good idea?

I believe I agree that looking at all the combat is critical, and, that magic is
severely handicapped at the moment (for low-level characters at least, which is
all I know since in all these years I don't think I've every topped level 40).

Ok, Ryo, you can stop complaining by at least one increment... I commented... ;-)
and stopped lurking.

Kevin