[CF-Devel] polymorph - worst exploit ever

[Mark Wedel]

Andreas Vogl wrote:
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      Fixing that is good, but it's not enough IMHO. Things like a
     
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      lava-slasher aren't of higher value than other artifacts.
     
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      Transforming a Chaos-Sword into a lava-slasher is still bad.
     
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      Nobody ever used polymorph on items for other than abuse.
     
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      You would need to specify TONS of special exceptions to define
     
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      a "fair" trade of one item into another. Comparing the value
     
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      only is not enough.
     
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      I say: Disable polymorph on items. As a mapmaker, it makes me
     
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      have nightmares.
     
     
 If we disable polymorph on items, we might as well disable it completely.

 If the lava slasher is a superior weapon, I would argue it should have a higher
value, so you could not transform it from a lesser artifact into that.

 But note that the way the polymorph code works (when it works properly) is that
such transformations would be incredibly rare.

 Basically, it will pick one item from all the items of the same type (ie,
weapons) of lower value.  Being there are lots of mundane weapons and relative
few artifacts, the chance of it picking a better artifact weapon is quite
unlikely.

 More so, after the first polymorph of the artifact weapon, almost certainly it
got transformed into a mundane weapon, like say an axe, and further polymorphs
are only going to make it worse.

 So, for it to actually polymorph one artifact into another 'more worthwhile'
one, you basically need to find one of higher value and be lucky enough that on
the first try, it polymorphs into what you want it to be.

 To me, those conditions make it fairly unlikely for it to happen.  And if it
does, I don't think its a big deal.  I find games that have such little quirks
more interesting.

 Also note that the end result can only be items that is an archetype (ie, part
of standard distribution).  Items customized on maps can never appear, except
for the base type it came from.  So for example, you could try to polymorph all
you want, but you'll never end up with any of the final weapons in the tower of
demonology.

 So as a mapmaker, this should make no difference.  The only case where this
could perhaps be a problem if you give out a very high valued weapon that
doesn't have much magic (say a jeweled sword).


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      Make all monsters above level 20 immune to polymorph. That, and
     
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      nothing less, would seem acceptible to me. Transforming high level
     
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      monsters is *always* bad. When I design a map, I want to rely on the
     
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      fact that a player must really fight the monsters I put in.
     
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      It is silly if a player can change the monsters to meet his personal
     
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      favour. And like with artifacts<->value it's impossible to determine
     
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      the true strenght of a monster just by looking at it's level!
     
     
 I was going to look at the saving throw code and see at what point monsters
always make saves.

 Another thought I had would be to not polymorph monsters whose name does not
match that of their archetype (in addition to other checks already mentioned). 
In this way, most custom monsters on maps will just be immune since they have
non standard names.


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      In general I have to say I see no point in spending massive amounts of
     
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      work to improve the polymorph code. Even if we managed to have a totally
     
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      balanced and fair polymorph-spell, it would still be invain since
     
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      nobody would use it then. That spell is only interesting for players
     
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      as long as they can cheat with it.
     
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      I know that the idea of removing (or at least crippling) a feature
     
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      might not cause enthusiasm, but in this case it seems neccessary.
     
     
 So far, this discussion has probably taken more time than it will take to
implement the suggested changes to polymorph.  So these are only minor changes
and quick to do.

 As per my comments under the items, I disagree on some points.  Crossfire can
never be 100% balanced, and if it was, I think it would be a very uninteresting
game (100% balanced basically would mean all races/classes are equal at all
levels, all items are balanced with respect to all others, etc).

 There will always be some cases - using such and such a spell to kill a
specific monster works outstandingly well, items x,y,z are better than a,b,c,
and so on.

 To me, what polymorph with the above changes will allow to happen:
1) You may be very lucky and be able to polymorph one artifact into another. 
Those are likely to be such rare occurances, I don't have a problem with it.
2) Polymorph will still be useful in some cases.  Transforming monster X into
monster Y to kill it/get past it seems perfectly fine.  Transforming rings with
a non useful protection into another might also work.
3) Polymorph will always be a net loss.  You may get lucky in some cases and
turn that ring resist poison +20 into a ring resist fire +20, or turn one
artifact into another, but items get consumed and turned into garbage, and I
don't think overall it will be a winning proposition for players.  But it still
will remain a nice curiosity.

 As per another discussion (I think it was the dual weapon thread) - not all
weapons are useful (or the best), but I don't think that means they need to be
removed.  Keeping them in for color seems fine to me.  Same is true for
polymorph.  Sure, it may generally not be used, but new players may have some
fun with it.

 However, one thing I would do is remove all the rods of polymorph.  Finding
that wand and playing with it for a little while may be fun, but having a rod
such you can play with it forever will probably cause polymorph to lose some of
its mystery.